Why should we, as a community, use legislation as a 'preemptive strike' against the AR (Animal Rights) groups?
This seems to be the absolute most counterintuitive means of addressing the issue at hand. Many of these groups just use this as a means of 'spring boarding' ahead and using them against us as a community.
(11-21-2009 08:07 PM)DR_Sparktrician Wrote: [ -> ]Why should we, as a community, use legislation as a 'preemptive strike' against the AR (Animal Rights) groups?
This seems to be the absolute most counterintuitive means of addressing the issue at hand. Many of these groups just use this as a means of 'spring boarding' ahead and using them against us as a community.
Because there is an agressive campaign by AR to pass legislation state by state to ban many reptiles. Until NCARK and then USARK there was no answer to their campaign. Over the last 10 years about a dozen states passed very restrictive BANS. It is the model legislation pushed by the Animal Protection Institute. A powerful AR group funded at the national level. Ask any friends you may have in WA or IA how they feel about legislation that was passed mosy recently in thier states. They are the same folks who introduced their legislation in SC in 2006. That bill was defeated by the work of Roark Ferguson, Steve Bennett and myself... there were some others too, but no one here. API brought their bill to WA 6 times before it passed. When a state decides they want to do something they look for a model. In the past the only model was API's. There was a vaccume and the API bill became the default. Now USARK has a model written by herpers for herpers to protect our ability to work with the animals of our choice. It is my opinion that if our model did not exist then SC would now be looking at API's model legislation. If we don't police ourselves others will do it for us. Which model do you prefer?
Okay, so we have a model. Yahoo
What is wrong with presenting statistics? REXANO is a treasure trove of statistics and they wish for ALL to utilize them. I actually corresponded with Z earlier today and she was not only suggesting that I pass them around freely, she was encouraging it in the defense of ALL. Statistics are empirical data that can not be argued with. Statistics ARE our first line of defense, period. The model of which you speak should never be used before concessions are required. Those of us that are responsible should not be held accountable before criminal actions. When you recklessly endanger the public there is already laws for that almost world wide. To pose legislation for the sake of it is dangerous and stupid.
I have attached a link directly to REXANO's first statistics page for your convenience:
http://www.rexano.org//Statistics/Stats.htm
(11-21-2009 09:35 PM)DR_Sparktrician Wrote: [ -> ]Okay, so we have a model. Yahoo
What is wrong with presenting statistics? REXANO is a treasure trove of statistics and they wish for ALL to utilize them. I actually corresponded with Z earlier today and she was not only suggesting that I pass them around freely, she was encouraging it in the defense of ALL. Statistics are empirical data that can not be argued with. Statistics ARE our first line of defense, period. The model of which you speak should never be used before concessions are required. Those of us that are responsible should not be held accountable before criminal actions. When you recklessly endanger the public there is already laws for that almost world wide. To pose legislation for the sake of it is dangerous and stupid.
I have attached a link directly to REXANO's first statistics page for your convenience:
http://www.rexano.org//Statistics/Stats.htm
we present statistics all the time. Z at REXANO is a good fiend of mine. many of her reptile statistics she got from me.
as for all your reasons why there should be no legislation... that is an argument you need to make with the SC legislature. they came to us. not the other way around.
So your response to the SC Legislature was I have a model, but why would you want one when the statistics do not support the need for one. These are the data that I have gathered and compiled and they tell me that you sir are more likely to be struck by lightning.
You presented in a professional manner that those that would suggest a need for the state to provide new training and additional legacy costs to support the enforcement of new management legislation have a very special interest in mind, namely we the people not having captive animals.
(11-21-2009 10:08 PM)DR_Sparktrician Wrote: [ -> ]So your response to the SC Legislature was I have a model, but why would you want one when the statistics do not support the need for one. These are the data that I have gathered and compiled and they tell me that you sir are more likely to be struck by lightning.
You presented in a professional manner that those that would suggest a need for the state to provide new training and additional legacy costs to support the enforcement of new management legislation have a very special interest in mind, namely we the people not having captive animals.
Because without our own proposal we leave ouselves at the mercy of the AR Industry, their model, their misinformation and their lobbying dollars. That is a formula that has been a disaster over the last 10 years for the reptile community. On my watch we will not repeat the fatal mistakes of the past.
So we know what upfront and legacy costs of our model are, correct?
Do we know theirs?
When it comes to any government, the real bottom line if dollars and cents. Any person with any logical thought process will tell you that if you take anything from the open market all of the ancillary goods and products that go to the support of said item. Many of us that keep the large guys raise our own food, but we still have to purchase feed. When fewer items are purchased this affects the entire supply chain, from the shop keeper to the farmer, the driver to the dock worker. How does this affect the economy?
These are all questions that you should have answers for when you arrive for these hearings. Yes it is very easy for me to sit back and tell you these things from the side lines, but if we (this includes you) do not have transparency we can not achieve a common goal. All here are EXTREMELY passionate about our hobby and wish to have NO interference by some bureaucratic A-hole sitting in his castle (elected politicians telling us beatniks how it is going to be). This has become quite tiresome with the rest of our government. When all of the facts are presented, there is no conceivable way that any legislation could pass unless we allow fear and ignorance to make that decision. All that we should need to provide to a rational audience is best husbandry practices and by default local animal control, when provided with proper training, can recognize improper husbandry and neglect charges be brought from there.
Education before legislation.
hey all i am curious as to what states the bans have affected and what states its attempting to affect and how to properly fight it
The ban will affect the entire nation. S373 and HR 2811 are designed to end not only imports but breeding transport and sale. We have a law section here that will keep you updated on what you can do to help.
Andrew wrote:
<< we present statistics all the time. Z at REXANO is a good fiend of mine. many of her reptile statistics she got from me>>
Just found this thread, so I finally joined. I am replying to Andrew, who I assume is Andrew Wyatt?
It is true that Andrew and me are on very friendly terms, in fact we finally met in Vegas in early December when he was here for herp show. But I didn’t get statistics from him, in fact, I wrote many statistical files and article before I even knew about Andrew or NCARK
http://www.rexano.org/Safety.htm
I get my info from AR claims of exotic attacks, and for the last year I was subscribed to High Beam news search engine, paying almost 300 dollars out of my pocket, to get access to full news reports and archives from many years ago to see what exotic attacks and fatalities occurred, that is how I get my info, thru research on my own. Some data, like venomous fatalities, I compare with TESS, poison centers. Unfortunately, with native hots like rattlers, the data will not tell you if the bite was from wild or captive native snake, so that is when I have to go thru news reports to see what happened which year and form what snake. Sometimes I email with governmental wildlife agencies to get more proofs/facts on type of captive snake that bit somebody.
I have been documenting false animal sightings and dumpings for over 10 years, before many here even knew AR, (HSUS, PETA, etc..) were a serious threat, see here:
http://www.rexano.org//NewsArchivePages/...6Frame.htm
Increase in suspicious dead and live exotic animal dumping across the USA appears directly related to the legislation banning private ownership of exotic and wild animals
Zuzana Kukol
http://www.REXANO.org
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(11-21-2009 09:52 PM)Andrew Wrote: [ -> ] (11-21-2009 09:35 PM)DR_Sparktrician Wrote: [ -> ]Okay, so we have a model. Yahoo
What is wrong with presenting statistics? REXANO is a treasure trove of statistics and they wish for ALL to utilize them. I actually corresponded with Z earlier today and she was not only suggesting that I pass them around freely, she was encouraging it in the defense of ALL. Statistics are empirical data that can not be argued with. Statistics ARE our first line of defense, period. The model of which you speak should never be used before concessions are required. Those of us that are responsible should not be held accountable before criminal actions. When you recklessly endanger the public there is already laws for that almost world wide. To pose legislation for the sake of it is dangerous and stupid.
I have attached a link directly to REXANO's first statistics page for your convenience:
http://www.rexano.org//Statistics/Stats.htm
we present statistics all the time. Z at REXANO is a good fiend of mine. many of her reptile statistics she got from me.
as for all your reasons why there should be no legislation... that is an argument you need to make with the SC legislature. they came to us. not the other way around.